diff --git a/DOCS/interface-changes.rst b/DOCS/interface-changes.rst
index 6efd5a5105..4c5c694483 100644
--- a/DOCS/interface-changes.rst
+++ b/DOCS/interface-changes.rst
@@ -20,6 +20,10 @@ Interface changes
 ::
 
  --- mpv 0.12.0 ---
+    - some time properties (at least "playback-time", "time-pos",
+      "time-remaining", "playtime-remaining") now are unavailable if the time
+      is unknown, instead of just assuming that the internal playback position
+      is 0
     - add --audio-fallback-to-null option
     - replace vf_format outputlevels suboption with "video-output-levels" global
       property/option; also remove "colormatrix-output-range" property
diff --git a/player/command.c b/player/command.c
index 0b19b20b6c..1bcf0c47e3 100644
--- a/player/command.c
+++ b/player/command.c
@@ -484,6 +484,9 @@ static int mp_property_stream_end(void *ctx, struct m_property *prop,
 // Assumes prop is the type of the actual property.
 static int property_time(int action, void *arg, double time)
 {
+    if (time == MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
+        return M_PROPERTY_UNAVAILABLE;
+
     const struct m_option time_type = {.type = CONF_TYPE_TIME};
     switch (action) {
     case M_PROPERTY_GET:
@@ -652,6 +655,9 @@ static bool time_remaining(MPContext *mpctx, double *remaining)
     double len = get_time_length(mpctx);
     double playback = get_playback_time(mpctx);
 
+    if (playback == MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
+        return false;
+
     *remaining = len - playback;
 
     return len >= 0;
diff --git a/player/configfiles.c b/player/configfiles.c
index 29acdda6b9..db19685c0f 100644
--- a/player/configfiles.c
+++ b/player/configfiles.c
@@ -286,10 +286,6 @@ void mp_write_watch_later_conf(struct MPContext *mpctx)
         goto exit;
     }
 
-    double pos = get_current_time(mpctx);
-    if (pos == MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
-        goto exit;
-
     mp_mk_config_dir(mpctx->global, MP_WATCH_LATER_CONF);
 
     conffile = mp_get_playback_resume_config_filename(mpctx, filename);
@@ -307,7 +303,9 @@ void mp_write_watch_later_conf(struct MPContext *mpctx)
             write_name[n] = (unsigned char)filename[n] < 32 ? '_' : filename[n];
         fprintf(file, "# %s\n", write_name);
     }
-    fprintf(file, "start=%f\n", pos);
+    double pos = get_current_time(mpctx);
+    if (pos != MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
+        fprintf(file, "start=%f\n", pos);
     for (int i = 0; backup_properties[i]; i++) {
         const char *pname = backup_properties[i];
         char *val = NULL;
diff --git a/player/osd.c b/player/osd.c
index 8a000862eb..65747bc7cf 100644
--- a/player/osd.c
+++ b/player/osd.c
@@ -54,6 +54,14 @@ static void sadd_hhmmssff(char **buf, double time, bool fractions)
     talloc_free(s);
 }
 
+// If time unknown (MP_NOPTS_VALUE), use 0 instead.
+static void sadd_hhmmssff_u(char **buf, double time, bool fractions)
+{
+    if (time == MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
+        time = 0;
+    sadd_hhmmssff(buf, time, fractions);
+}
+
 static void sadd_percentage(char **buf, int percent) {
     if (percent >= 0)
         *buf = talloc_asprintf_append(*buf, " (%d%%)", percent);
@@ -191,7 +199,7 @@ static void print_status(struct MPContext *mpctx)
     saddf(&line, ": ");
 
     // Playback position
-    sadd_hhmmssff(&line, get_playback_time(mpctx), mpctx->opts->osd_fractions);
+    sadd_hhmmssff_u(&line, get_playback_time(mpctx), mpctx->opts->osd_fractions);
 
     double len = get_time_length(mpctx);
     if (len >= 0) {
@@ -429,7 +437,7 @@ static void sadd_osd_status(char **buffer, struct MPContext *mpctx, int level)
             *buffer = talloc_strdup_append(*buffer, text);
             talloc_free(text);
         } else {
-            sadd_hhmmssff(buffer, get_playback_time(mpctx), fractions);
+            sadd_hhmmssff_u(buffer, get_playback_time(mpctx), fractions);
             if (level == 3) {
                 double len = get_time_length(mpctx);
                 if (len >= 0) {
diff --git a/player/playloop.c b/player/playloop.c
index 2972593050..f5463e2622 100644
--- a/player/playloop.c
+++ b/player/playloop.c
@@ -199,7 +199,8 @@ static int mp_seek(MPContext *mpctx, struct seek_params seek,
         break;
     case MPSEEK_RELATIVE:
         direction = seek.amount > 0 ? 1 : -1;
-        target_time = seek.amount + get_current_time(mpctx);
+        double cur = get_current_time(mpctx);
+        target_time = seek.amount + (cur == MP_NOPTS_VALUE ? 0 : cur);
         break;
     case MPSEEK_FACTOR: ;
         double len = get_time_length(mpctx);
@@ -390,18 +391,20 @@ double get_time_length(struct MPContext *mpctx)
 double get_current_time(struct MPContext *mpctx)
 {
     struct demuxer *demuxer = mpctx->demuxer;
-    if (!demuxer)
-        return 0;
-    if (mpctx->playback_pts != MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
-        return mpctx->playback_pts;
-    if (mpctx->last_seek_pts != MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
-        return mpctx->last_seek_pts;
-    return 0;
+    if (demuxer) {
+        if (mpctx->playback_pts != MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
+            return mpctx->playback_pts;
+        if (mpctx->last_seek_pts != MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
+            return mpctx->last_seek_pts;
+    }
+    return MP_NOPTS_VALUE;
 }
 
 double get_playback_time(struct MPContext *mpctx)
 {
     double cur = get_current_time(mpctx);
+    if (cur == MP_NOPTS_VALUE)
+        return cur;
     double start = get_start_time(mpctx);
     // During seeking, the time corresponds to the last seek time - apply some
     // cosmetics to it.